(You can see the original discussion by clicking “comments”/104 above)
P Senarath Yapa I don’t know how Seneca is wiser to know more than wise know.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma That’s an interesting question! Actually it occured to me before I shared this post! It’s a self-evident statement, isn’t it? He should be either wiser or he has some statistics!
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma One of several such studies seem to provide statistical evidence:
New meta-analysis checks the correlation between intelligence and faith
First systematic analysis of its kind even proposes…
arstechnica.com|By Akshat Rathi
P Senarath Yapa I can clearly see that Eskimo is a wiser one.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma I too!
P Senarath Yapa If this conversation really took place with an Eskimo, wisdom has no bearing on knowledge, in this case.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Perhaps, knowledge has no bearing on wisdom, in this case-I agree without any hesitation!
P Senarath Yapa Correction to my statement; “….wisdom has no or has little bearing on knowledge ……..” , it could be bearing is insignificant as well.
Its also evident that the particular knowledge of the priest has no or has little bearing on wisdom as you said.
So, the relationship between such knowledge (that priest had) and the wisdom is insignificant.
So, it may be true when Seneca said ” religion is false for wise”, however he/she was wrong when he/she said “religion is regarded as true by common people”, as Eskimo is a common man.
So, I don’t think anybody can believe Seneca is wise when stated that loaded statement.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Correct! But the Eskimo too probably had his own religion and no doubt he believed it! What the priest was telling him was “holy shit” to the Eskimo!(to me as well! hahaa!)
P Senarath Yapa But the religion of the Eskimo can not be an Abrahamic religion or a God based one. It should be something like Buddhism or something like tree worshiping, if he had one.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma They have a non-Abrahamic creationism, where the creator laid a cosmic egg!
P Senarath Yapa In that case, their religion is not Buddhism. It seems Asoka has failed to send mercenary to the North Pole.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Asoka didn’t know about them! There are no ‘records’ to say that even Buddha knew about North and South America!
P Senarath Yapa If there are no records, there is no way you can know. That doesn’t eliminate anything, you are just stopped at where you are in darkness unable to go beyond that. Anything you say further than that is principally you are unauthorized to say and invalid. No base for such yelling.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma You mean such “preaching”?
P Senarath Yapa Yes, you may call it preaching. Preaching based on just mysticism/faith!
P Senarath Yapa We have no way to come to the conclusion that Asoka or the Buddha didn’t know about it. There is no way for you to arrive at it. Don’t you think it is an arbitrary statement?
P Senarath Yapa Lack of evidence is no evidence of lack!
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Are you ‘hurt’ by lack of evidence? Similarly, there is no evidence that people had developed the steam engine in ancient Greece! Are the Greeks ‘hurt’ by this statement?
P Senarath Yapa Dear friend Longus Thuma, I always get hurt by unsound arguments put forward to prove points. I am proud of being so. I try my best not to use invalid and unsound arguments. I didn’t say I have arguments to say that Asoka knew about the people of the North Pole, but you were confident that he did not know. Tell me how? That is only what you like to be, you have nothing to back what you like. Your liking is not a good reason something to be so. If it is so,Ravana must be a real king in Sri Lanka, as Prof. Gananatha Obeysekara is dying for him. In such a case anybody’s reasonable answer is “I don’t know” and it is neither positive nor negative. Here you don’t know whether Asoka knew about Eskimos or not. You know nothing beyond that. Agree?
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Don’t get hurt by such trivialities, Hon.Yapa! I know why you are pursuing what I said about Asoka and not what I said about Buddha! Well, I was careless in that statement. It should have been, “There is no evidence to say that Asoka(no..no not Asoka Wijemanne!) knew about Eskimos”. The error is regretted!
There is no ‘record’ to say that Buddha knew about them as well(leave alone visiting them!!) As the Aztecs and Incas were warriors and rampantly practised human sacrifice etc., if Buddha visited them or preached to them and prevented any such acts, we would expect to find at least some folklore about such visits. That’s why I said that there is no evidence to say so. Similarly, we don’t have any evidence to say that King Dutugemunu used a Rolls Royce, though it’s possible!
We don’t know! Agreed!
P Senarath Yapa That is not a triviality Longus Thuma. Changing the places of 1 and 2 of the number 0.1000000000002 could be a triviality to a Montessori going child, but it is a serious act for a Mathematician.
To know whether Asoka knew about Eskimos or not you will need two special competencies which were claimed to be possessed by the Buddha (and may be some other people as well). 1. Para chitta vijanana gnanaya (competency to know the minds of others) 2. Pera visu kanda pilivela danna gnanaya (competency to see the past lives)
There is no any other way to know it.
But to ascertain whether King Dutugemunu used a Rolls Royce or not, there are enough methodologies. King Dutugemunu did not use a Rolls Roycefor sure, I assure you, there is no doubt about it, if you have any doubt give me a ring.
But you are not sure whether Asoka knew about Eskimos or not, as you have not yet acquired (I think so) the above mentioned two competencies.
I can see you repeating this mistake. I can remember you several times lauded the (loaded) statement of one of your friends: “Universe is merely a joke.” Really he or you don’t know it. Many people have a tenancy to make formulas, praise and believe “not known but seems to be mighty things”. That makes you intellectually weak.
My advice: Don’t take things for granted.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma If you don’t know something you can be happier, Yapa.
P Senarath Yapa I don’t know!
But there is a saying, ignorance is bliss!
May be you are experiencing that particular bliss
P Senarath Yapa Drawing conclusions even from correct data/information is a subtle task. Even a trained mind for the very purpose could fall into mental pitfalls in the process.
Please read the following story.
A scientist started an experiment about the behaviour of beetles. He put a beetle on the table and commanded it “GO!”, and the beetle started moving on the table. Then he caught the beetle and broke one of its legs, put it back on the table and shouted “GO”. The beetle started moving with its five legs. Man caught the beetle again, broke another leg, put it again on the table and shouted the command. The beetle crawled with four legs. The scientist repeated the experiment with three legs, then with two legs and found that the beetle moved when he said “GO!”. He broke another leg of the innocent creature, this time too it crawled on the table with difficulty with its remaining leg, when the scientist said “GO! “. Man broke the final leg of the beetle, put it back on the table and commanded “GO! “, however, unlike in the past this time the beetle didn’t move.
The scientist’s conclusion of the experiment found at the end of his research paper is reprinted for your perusal please.
“When all six legs are broken, a beetle cannot hear. “
Moral: Scientists too make mistakes even in interpreting true data , still some individuals think they can draw conclusions without any data, and confident they are true too.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma I have heard this beetle story before! It underlines a basic ‘defect’ in evidence-based method! On the other hand, Yapa, we have achieved everything we achieved so far from medicine to astronomy, using this ‘defective’ method; not by sitting under trees!
Yapa Thumani, earlier you said: “competencies which were claimed to be possessed by the Buddha (and may be some other people as well). 1. Para chitta vijanana gnanaya (competency to know the minds of others) 2. Pera visu kanda pilivela danna gnanaya (competency to see the past lives) “
How do you know these are true?
P Senarath Yapa I don’t know!
But I know that if you don’t have them, you wouldn’t have known whether Asoka knew about Eskimos or not unless you believed in mystic knowledge gaining methods mentioned above.
I have shown you that I don’t use such methods by objecting to your conclusion.
Therefore, it is you who should answer your question as it was you who used those methods in drawing conclusions.
Do you still believe drawing conclusions without data with mystic methods? If not you have no one here to get the answer for your question. You may ask Seneca, as he/she seems to have beliefs in such methodologies, to formulate mighty statements otherwise can not know.
For me his/her statement is unwarranted. She/he seems to have spoken to the gall.ery. What is your opinion?
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Yapa Thumani, here you say again: “But I know that if you don’t have them, you wouldn’t have known whether Asoka knew about Eskimos or….” Once again you repeat your earlier belief by saying, “But, I know that if you don’t have them you wouldn’t know…” I asked how did you Know that?
P Senarath Yapa Simple logic!
If you hadn’t believed those two mystic methods and hadn’t used them for knowing the thoughts of Asoka, you wouldn’t have known it. But you have shown that you knew it, hence invariably you had used them, you used them because you had faith on them (at least your inner-self, though your outer-self might not accept the fact publicly). (definitely that knowledge you gained neither through rationality nor through empiricism, in terms of rationality and empiricism your conclusion and Seneca’s brave statement are unwarranted.)
So, you had believed them but I have only cited them as “competencies claimed by the Buddha”, I accept the existence of such a claim, not the existence of them, as a person of reasoning (mainly).
However, though I don’t have reasons to believe them beyond reasonable doubts, on the basis of balance of probabilities, I have reasons to believe them.Only the degree of acceptability is less.
So, as the person who believed and used the two mystic methodologies to solve a problem, it is you who should explain why you believed (with your inner-self) them, whether they are true or not, how to verify it etc. etc.
I think now it should be clear to you.
1. Many among those who claim they do not believe in mysticism really believe in them (at least with their inner-self) and use them in their day to day basis (even without their knowledge)
2. There are people who do not say that they reject mysticism, may not use them.
Got my message. I never said they were true or not.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma I can see the tangle you are in, and your effort to get out of it! A commendable effort!
Now you say that you don’t know whether such knowledge is real or not, but you merely accept the existence of that concept!
Yapa, many people may have many such concepts on countless ways of gaining such mystic knowledge. Some people believe when their “chosen one” climbed a mountain in the middle east, he was given all the knowledge by God!
And we don’t know which ones of these methods are true and which ones not! We need some kind of evidence, for this reason.
For example if YOU find out such a method, please let us know and demonstrate it to us!
If you can’t provide any evidence, all this becomes merely hollow talk!
P Senarath Yapa I know well that how my position is a tangle to you. I think that is because you use mystic methods other than rationalism and Empiricism to understand me while claiming you adore modern ways. I clearly showed it to you that claims are not always commensurate with actions.
If you want to understand my position, you will have to confine your learning methodologies mainly to those commonly accepted two methods. You will have to refrain from using unwarranted methodologies, you will have to be careful about your using them without your knowledge. You should stop jumping into hasty conclusions, as you have been doing and done in your last comment too.
Claiming that you don’t believe in mysticism won’t do, you will have to guard your mind going astray from those methods while you are in the knowing process (as I do, Ha! Ha!!).
You will have to meditate and guard your mind against going astray. That is the proper way to good understanding.
May triple gems bless you
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma All the best! Let me know when you reach there, Yapa(as King Bimbisara told young Siddartha!) Make sure you turn off your internet until then.
P Senarath Yapa I am going to do it through Internet.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Let this new tradition of Buddhism be known as “Interyana”! Saadu!
P Senarath Yapa My worry is you continue to rely on mysticism for knowledge in the pretext of modern methodologies. I think you don’t know what you are doing. Agree?
P Senarath Yapa Longus Thuma, I was serious when I said you will have to guard your mind against going astray. A problem inherited as humans in the logical process is that few can engage a couple of steps (logically) without making mistakes. Due to various reasons we deviate from that process and substitute some other thing to the process making the whole effort worthless ending up with an illogical conclusion. For this many things such as our conditioned beliefs, emotions, our special likings, our dislikes, our fascinations can influence and affect. Therefore, in a logical process, anybody should be mindful of such pitfalls for which one can be a prey and make his logical process too a prey, making his whole effort worthless by letting the final conclusion of the process invalid and incorrect. Therefore one should guard any logical process (thinking or telling or writing) from those biases to ensure the final product of the process is accurate.
That was what I meant, not any mysterious thing as you thought. I saw you were deviating and substituting with other things in your reasoning process in the discussion with me making you go astray reaching at unwarrented and improper conclusions. I wanted to point out it to you, I didn’t have any other intention Longus Thuma.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Thank you Hon. Yapa for your input! It’s true how weak our biological computer is, in reaching neutral conclusions, without being affected by our personal biases. I think I tried to call into question some of your statements using the same knife to dissect them. The outcome(if I was correct) shows that nothing stands supreme. In the end we start talking in defense. The best answer we can find is, “I don’t know!”. I have a high regard for His Holiness Dalai Lama, as he frequently uses this phrase, apart from his hearty laugh!
P Senarath Yapa That “beetle scientist” wouldn’t have drawn that stupid conclusion, if he had guarded his mind in the conclusion drawing process from the experimental data.
I think it is not a defect of the evidence based method as you thought, but it is an inherent defect of ordinary thinking process of the humans, which can be and should be corrected with mindful effort.
I think that is all, the Buddha advised us to do. I think that is the meditation the Buddha recommended to us, not that unintelligible mysticism our monks are used preach us.
Once a practicing monk complained to the Buddha that he cannot observe and keep on guarding thousands of wholesome things. You know the Buddha’s answer?
He advised to guard a single thing, instead of all. You know what? He advised the monk just to guard his mind!
You think the Buddha meant mysticism?
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Up to that point, no! But if you claim to gain knowledge to read minds and ability to go through walls by this process, it can be considered as mysticism!
P Senarath Yapa I don’t know whether this process can be used to go through walls and read minds, but as I have shown I have worthwhile reasons to follow the process even if it doesn’t give me those mystic benefits. I have no intention to gain them, as it doesn’t go with my needs.
Don’t you think it is worthwhile to follow the process even without those mystic benefits?
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Maybe! But, I’m not convinced. That’s why I tell you repeatedly to follow that path(Interyana) and let me know of the fruits! You are the guinea pig..!
P Senarath Yapa I have already achieved my main desired goal.
Are you saying that you are not convinced about the importance of keeping your knowledge gaining process to base on an accurate logical process?
Deviate a bit from your conditioned box and let your conscience to decide freely. Free your mind from old strings attached to it and let it be itself. Then it will reveal the truth imprisoned in your desires. Let that bird sing freely. Don’t tamper it to sing your desired songs. Then tell me about the song you listen to.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma I’m sure you would like to achieve such abilities as well, no?(anybody would like to read minds and walk through walls!)
Please describe to me in detail what you have achieved so far.
P Senarath Yapa I am not included in that set of anybody.
The achievement is that process itself. That tool which gives me wisdom to choose truth from untruth and good from bad.
Isn’t that a great achievement?
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma That means you don’t make any mistakes?(Are you infallible?) If you say you still make mistakes, that means you are still capable of making a mistake of thinking untruth as truth!
P Senarath Yapa Yes, I am infallible!
Oh! Sorry sorry, I made a mistake.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Rather looks like you are ‘inflatable’!
Kalhara Herath A really worth dialogue to follow. but some replies are too long .
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Those are not for busy people of today, who would only run through the headlines! Thank you for the input, Kalhara!
P Senarath Yapa Longus Thuma, you found me “unflattable?
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Oh! That must be another mistake you made! Are you willing to put your new method of gaining knowledge, to test?
P Senarath Yapa We have been locking our horns now for long in the cyber space no, Longus Thuma, anybody who wants to test two of our methods can do it visiting our battle grounds no Longus Thuma. If you feel like testing it from the very beginning again, I have no hesitation. I will sharpen my horn. You too may rub your horn against a hard boulder.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma For example I can ask you to tell whether some statements I make are true or not. For example, statements regarding personal information etc. To minimize coincidence I can prepare a large number of questions. If you would like to do it on a private forum, I am ready for it.
P Senarath Yapa I didn’t get. Can you explain a bit more?
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma As you say, you have gained a knowledge to say whether something is true or not. To test it, I can ask you questions to which there is only one true answer. If you have gained such knowledge, you should be able to know the true statements!
P Senarath Yapa You have got it wrong again, it seems.
You see, I would like to pose me as a student in a class, who can do Mathematical sums better than most of others. It doesn’t say that I will not make mistakes in solving mathematical sums. But it definitely say…See More
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma So doesn’t this method of gaining knowledge give you the ability to find truth from untruth?(as you claimed earlier) You may make few mistakes, but the overall validity of your answers can be assessed statistically! Agreed?
P Senarath Yapa Yes, but a Mathematical genius is not mandatorily supposed to know Geography better than a student studying Geography for his A/L’s.
I think you got what I say.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma How come? Does that ‘knowledge’ you possess have restrictions?
DevapriyaPerera Shyamalie Bopitiya who is the genius here
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Maybe you!
P Senarath Yapa Sure, those who are always fighting can not be geniuses.
P Senarath Yapa RE: your penultimate post, I should make some explanation.
Mathematics can be used in Physics, Chemistry, Engineering, Economics and Biology too to improve knowledge in those subject areas, but none of them can be built up by Mathematics alone. However, it does not make Mathematics worthless.
Kalhara Herath i repeat ; this is very interesting.
DevapriyaPerera Shyamalie Bopitiya very
P Senarath Yapa Thanks, our audience!
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma In that case Yapa Thumani, if you need to study a subject to gain knowledge, that comes under the method we already know! You claimed to have gained an alternative method, didn’t you? You called this Buddha’s method didn’t you? In the Buddha’s method too do you need to learn these in that old fashioned way?
P Senarath Yapa See, what I have been telling you . If you were mindful as I said to you in the understanding process of what I have been telling you, you wouldn’t have asked this question, Longus Thuma.
Through out the discussion the method I have been emphasising was the “logical process” for gaining knowledge. In the discussion I have been using the terms, “logical reasoning” and “rationalism” to indicate the same thing, as done by the people who know about these things.
If you think back you would realise that what I was trying to tell you was that the logical reasonings process can hamper due to inherent deficiencies of the human thinking process, and it should be corrected to make better conclusions and hence better understanding. So being mindful about the logical thinking process and preventing the mistakes that could take place in the process, one can make the end product better. I also clearly told you that this is not a mystic method.
I also mentioned about two reliable methods of knowledge gaining, one being the above and the other being Empiricism.
Was I talking anything other than this to you Longus Thuma?
Which one do you think the alternative method from the two methods I was talking?
Are you sure you were mindful about what I have been telling you in the discussion? If you were so, respecting a bit to my advice, you wouldn’t have gone astray like this and posed the above questions to me. Your lack of mindfulness made you again going astray. Until you pay mindfulness to whatever you think or tell or do, you will be hampered with such wrong conclusions and misconceptions and mishaps. As you have said you will never be free from tangles of this nature.
If monkeys are mindful, they will never sit on their tails.
Practice your mindfulness meditation Longus Thuma.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma අහම්භන්තේ!
If you have said so, then it won’t be so exciting as gaining ‘magical’ knowledge! Still, I would like to know about it! Longus Thuma is open to any kind of hitherto unknown body of knowledge, as his dementia is worsening!
P Senarath Yapa Naughty Fifty!
P Senarath Yapa To be successful in the path, additionally you need to discipline (sila) your words (in the present context, writing too) and deeds and also you will have to develop your intellectual capacity (wisdom/pragna).
If you had developed your sila component, you wouldn’t have pronounced unwarranted statements you pronounced in the discussion and wouldn’t have lauded your friend’s statement about the universe. That was a result of your lack of sila as well. You could have gathered more wisdom too.
The Buddha said sila, samadhi and pragna are the three components of achieving the goal.
Develop your sila, samadhi and pragna, Longus Thuma. You will continously decrease going astray. You will unleash your mind!
Believe the words of this senior disciple of the same school (really the same university, Ha! Ha!!), Longus Thuma.
May triple gems bless you!
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma කොහොමේ ඔහේ දන්නෙ?
P Senarath Yapa Follow what I said, then you also will know. Then you don’t need to ask that question.
Three things to practice are discipline, mindfulness and wisdom. Don’t you think that it would lead you to better understanding?
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma හැබැයි ඔය බන මම අහල තියෙනව! දැන් ඔහේම කියනවනෙ ඔහේට ලොකු ලොකු දේවලුත් කරන්න බැරිලු ඕකෙන්. ඔය පොඩි පොඩි ප්රශ්න වලට උත්තර හොයා ගන්නෙව ඇරුනහම. නැතේ?
P Senarath Yapa How come it is “podi podi? The competency to consistently get over 90% for Mathematics in contrast to 10-15 % is a podi podi achievement? Then why can’t you maintain that accuracy level?
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Not enough, Yapa! Not enough! You go ALLLL the way and tell me when you are capable of some extra-ordinary feat! I won’y buy that religious nonsense until then!
P Senarath Yapa Another unwarranted yelling born out of your bliss!
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma No..no..no! Don’t tell like that, Yapa Thumani. If you have “unleashed your mind”, as you say, you won’t be typing on a computer in the first place! You will be travelling all over the universe, instead! නැතේ?
P Senarath Yapa Not necessarily so.
P Senarath Yapa Do you say, truth should not be accepted as truth, if it comes to you from a religion?
Tell me what is the assurance you have that a religion can not have any truth. …See More
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Yapa Thumani, Longus further says:
“Truth” should be accepted as truth, even if it comes from a religion. First we should know the frame of reference of that ‘truth’….See More
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P Senarath Yapa Ok, we will hold the bull by its horn. Will stop going round the bush.
According to you tell me is the following statement true or false?
“Mindfulness (as described by me in the discussion) used in reasoning process improves the understanding.”
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Answer:Possible!
Now tell me whether the following statement is true or false?
“The practice of Yoga improves the physical and mental health
P Senarath Yapa I asked whether the statement was “true” or “false”.
I think you have not gone through the question properly.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma I don’t know!
P Senarath Yapa Really?
If it is so, you are invited to my Montessori class.
(Umba baba, you know how to find the way to come to Mihintale from India, you know how to find my name, but you don’t know the name of this tree? Umba baba! )
P Senarath Yapa Longus Thuma, I think you know very well that false/crafty denials won’t make things disappear into thin air.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma You tell me!
P Senarath Yapa No one else made false/crafty denials in this forum.
(Umba baba, not to understand that simple fact. )
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma I wasn’t sure! That’s why I said, “Possible”! But, you were not happy with it! You have forgotten that some questions cannot be answered by “Yes” or “No”! -The outdated Newtonian model Ha haaaa!
P Senarath Yapa But not the question I asked. It has only those two alternatives, you know it very well.
(Umba baba, come I will carry you to montessori )
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma “It has only those two alternatives!” How did you know that? You felt like so?
P Senarath Yapa Tell me what are the other alternatives, if any, other than the given two.
Your understanding about this subject area seems to be very low….See More
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma One other answer is, “I don’t know”. That’s because I don’t have compelling evidence to say that “mindfullness” helps in the reasoning process! If you have such evidence, please come forward. On the other hand, there is documented evidence that Yoga helps in physical and mental well being!
P Senarath Yapa Baba, umba lokuwennema nadda?
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Are you unable answer? (at this ripe old age?)
P Senarath Yapa Doctor Baby, you got to get some nutritious food and grow!
BTW doctor, you got medicine for intellectual dishonesty?
(Oka thamai api keewe,
Apith ekka baha keewe) Ha! Ha!!
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Pinwatha, you seem to have lost your cool and all kinds of logical means to counter Longus Thuma and now resorted to childish means like name calling. This shows your immaturity has well as your low morality. These cannot be expected of a person who cl…See More
P Senarath Yapa
P Senarath Yapa See you in another battle ground.
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma As I expected, you haven’t realized ANY damned “truth”, nor will you attain any such in the future as well-in my assessment! Pinwathuni, is there another term to describe this person?
(After this sermon of Sri Longus, the beings of ten thousand galaxies echoed with a soud ‘saadhu naada”!)
P Senarath Yapa See you, the crooked, in another battle ground.
P Senarath Yapa Shall I post this on my blog, so that beings of ten thousand galaxies can see it, if you don’t mind Longus Thuma? ♡
Asathya Sri Longus Thuma Ahambhanthe! No problem, Yapa Thumani!